Church and State

[ironphoenix]

Ganked from goldsquare: an excellent opinion piece on the complex and difficult relationship between religious and government institutions in the US. The legal arguments are specifically American, but the underlying question is universal.

Even the question of what should, from a purely religious point of view, be the criteria for membership in a religion is a very difficult one for me. On a fundamental spiritual level, I take the words "Catholic Church" very much at face value, and open the doors very wide indeed, but how that relates to human institutions is ... fraught.

Comments

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

We spend tax money on art too... does that mean it's useless? There's a certain expectation that the money I give will be distributed among a variety of causes, ranging from keeping the church building from falling down to paying for the priest's meals and travel to feeding homeless people and sheltering abused women. I don't expect it to be embezzled for private ends, of course!

[bastetschylde.livejournal.com]

I think it was more a matter of degree/proportion spent, because quite a few people who were regulars left said church because they felt that the money was not being spent wisely. From what it sounds like, it may have been almost, or perhaps all, of the money raised in a given period - and possibly a particular individual involved who wasn't doing things properly (cristofcanada would know). Renovating a church or getting supports for a statue to make it SAFE, I don't see an issue with, just like restorations of ancient temples and so forth. Nor do I see a problem in money helping pay for clergy's reasonable expenses as you have described so long as it is all detailed and recorded to ensure that it's being used wisely - same thing goes for charitable organizations without any religious/spiritual focus.

It's also a matter of sources and where the money is being distributed. Tax money being spent on art often helps to support careers (like your discussions with priests) and encourages intellectual stimulation.

In some ways, I think the world would do better if it were secular. If it's true that the main draw of religion/spirituality is community as opposed to beliefs/faiths/_, then the world will significantly be improved. Many churches are like cathedrals... they are beautiful and large, but do churches struggle the same way charities do? I've been a volunteer in and employee of several charities, and it's very common for the work space to be in poor conditions. Why do religious/spiritual organizations have the opportunity to do their work in a large space whereas many charities don't? I'd love to know the answer to this. I know there are many small churches including one room ones, but I still wonder. What's the average number of paid staff in small, medium, large sized churches?

Someone should do a study on this.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

I think it was more a matter of degree/proportion spent, because quite a few people who were regulars left said church because they felt that the money was not being spent wisely.

*nod* Voting with one's feet sends the message pretty clearly... that sounds like a fair outcome to me. The person or people who spent the money without understanding the donors' intent didn't do a very good job, although they didn't do a criminally bad one, and so their organization lost out as the donors walked. The organization should deal with them as with anyone who doesn't do a good job, if it's still around to do so!

My parish has perhaps half a dozen FT paid staff equivalent positions, I think: a priest, a pastoral associate (religious administrator might be the best translation of that), a finance director, and a few folks who cover admin and maintenance. I think the rest is volunteer-based.

Churches are struggling to make ends meet; for example, St. Brigid's Parish collapsed financially¹ and the building has been converted to a center for the arts. There are a lot of people leaving the churches, and a lot of lawsuits from the abuse that was inflicted by these organizations, so the financial picture is often bleak.

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1: The less charitable among us may be quietly gloating... my parish and St. B's were at odds for many years as two downtown parishes with very different views on homosexuals in the church. They weren't as bad as Phelps' gang, but they said and did some nasty stuff back in the day. Our policy has been for a long time to accept people as they come, sexual identity and all.