Pride parade

[ironphoenix]

I'll be walking in tomorrow's Pride parade. There is a contingent of us from my parish; I don't know exactly how many of us there will be, but it's sanctioned by the parish itself (we even have T-shirts!). I have no idea whether there will be any reaction from the wider church institution. I think it's an important step for us in the Church who look at Jesus' life and teachings, and imagine what his radical inclusivity might be today.

To those who have been turned away by the church: I'm sorry, and we're trying to change things for the better.

Comments

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Please understand that I meant this in the nicest way I can, with several edits, and please take this in the nicest way you possibly can:

Non-Catholics will rarely view as sincere an effort by a Catholic organisation whose goals are contradicted by the Pope.

And no matter how sincere your personal intentions, the fact that your church emphatically contradicts them makes you seem less trustworthy.

I believe you are honest and good-intentioned. I also believe that you do not set policy, and that many people in your organisation will continue to obey policy set in opposition to your position, regardless of your position. And those people have influence.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Put another way: Until the Pope adopts your position, I can't trust the Catholic Church to enforce it, even though you believe it.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

I hear you, and thank you for the care you've taken in writing your comment. In the main, I agree with you, sadly.

I'm not the (literally!) anointed spokesperson for--let alone leader of--the organization as a whole, and I'm painfully aware that that organization has a long way to go yet. My apology is my own; my declaration of intent to improve matters is a restatement of my parish's.

My intent in joining the parade is twofold: to declare to the rest of the church that I, with an informed conscience, disagree with church teaching and policy in this matter; and, to show everyone else that the church, as an organization made up not only of the Pope and Curia, but also of a vast number of much less visible individuals and sub-communities with varying degrees of autonomy, is not all of one mind about this.

We Roman Catholics who disagree with the official position of the institutional church have for too long mostly muttered quietly about this without rocking the boat. The minuscule fraction of the institution which is doing the rocking in this action might be ignored; on the other hand, it might cause others who have also been muttering to join in the boat-rocking, and who knows where that may lead?

Could you please clarify one thing, though: are you saying that contradicting the stated position of the institution of which I am and remain a member makes me personally seem less trustworthy than not doing so would?

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Could you please clarify one thing, though: are you saying that contradicting the stated position of the institution of which I am and remain a member makes me personally seem less trustworthy than not doing so would?

I am saying that: You are contradicting the church that you currently actively support, and that makes you seem less believable than if you were taking a position that your church ignored, or where you agreed with your church. Because your church is both authoritarian and disagrees with you; your disagreement with them inherently appears disingenous to outsiders. If you were a member of a less-authoritarian or less-homophobic church, your support of Pride would appear to be a more sincere and honest expression of your church.

Put another way: I don't trust that your contravention of your church's commandments is meaningful in any real-world larger-than-you sense. I believe it to be sincere, and well-intentioned, and also that your church will actively work to undo any good you do.

Which makes me mistrustful of anything you do in the name of your church. I believe that Mike wants good things. I have great trouble believing that the Catholic Church wants good things even though Mike says they do, because the official church organs keep saying otherwise.

Does that make sense?


I am desperately trying to explain why I feel you are sincere and your church is not, without offending. And I have ZERO idea if I'm threading that particular needle.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Put another way: I think you agree with all the things you say. I think your position as religious representative is compromised by "superiors" contradicting you. Does that make sense?

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

I think you've explained yourself well, and I haven't taken offense. It's an intensely affecting issue for me, and I get the sense that it's one for you as well; hopefully, I'm not giving offense either.

Because your church is both authoritarian and disagrees with you ...

That is part of what makes this parade difficult for me: this may be akin to civil disobedience, from the point of view of the organization. Archbishop Terrence may take a dim view of this, and I'm not entirely sure of what that would entail.

That said, "my church" is a complicated, fragmented entity, much like "my country". I don't want to represent this as a universal opening-up on the part of the Roman Catholic Church as a whole; that would indeed be dishonest. I think the authorities and their supporters in this are sincerely opposed to our position, and don't want to present them as pretending to support it.

All I can say is that there are some of us who are working from within, and making that public is a step in a very long struggle.

Where I think I disagree with you is the notion that my church is an indivisible atomic entity. I sincerely hope that this leads to reflection and reform, not to schism--we've had too much of the latter already--but I acknowledge the possibility; last week's Gospel reading, after all, was the bit where Jesus says that his coming will bring about not unity, but division.

[reyl.livejournal.com]

My family has a long history of being Catholic an ignoring dogma on GLBTQ issues. Seeing loving, loud, accepting Catholics out marching in the parade made my heart feel amazing. So thanks for that :) Any church is a sum of its community and people make that community. Even if I can't support the institution I'm glad that people manage to be caring humans despite what the people in the funny hats say. It still won't convince me to give up all my other gods, but its nice.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Our paths are different, at least for now, and that's fine too.