Interesting article

[ironphoenix]

An article about women leaving tech fields in their thirties and forties, related to recent discussions. The article's main point is good and seems pretty sound to me, but there's a line that's tossed in about "the hostile macho cultures — the hard hat culture of engineering, the geek culture of technology or the lab culture of science" which doesn't get any further discussion. What are your impressions or experiences of that, and why is it one of "[t]he top two reasons why women leave" work in STEM fields?

Ganked from dracodraconis.

Comments

[zenten.livejournal.com]

I know the engineers that I had to deal with at school were pretty "macho", as in they acted like they could beat anyone up in a fight, that winning was all that counts, that drinking constantly is a good idea, and were highly sexist. Not saying all were like that (I can think of some very notable exceptions) but that was the vast majority of the people in my first year engineering courses.

I'm not sure what the geek culture has to do with keeping women out though. Although that could be from the number of female geeks I know.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

So far, the responses seem to side with you on your second point.

*thinks waaaaay back to first year* You know, my class was pretty civilized that way. The mechs, aeros and civils seemed to do more of the macho thing, as I recall (I was electrical). Enviro, elec, and comp sys folks were much less prone to chest-thumping. Is it a little-known side effect of inhaling steel and aluminum shavings, I wonder?

[soul-diaspora.livejournal.com]

As I've said before, from my perspective, the whole thing is overblown.

#1: What exactly is wrong with "geek culture"? I am a computer geek. And proud of it.

#2: "hostile macho?" In the nearly 20 years I've been into computers I've run into almost no hostility from my fellow geeks, and quite a lot of "wow, you're a woman and you're into this stuff! cool!" and other expressions of surprise and friendliness. After submitting several patches to fvwm, I was given CVS access. In my AP Comp Sci class in high school (in which I was the only female), guys came to me for homework help and one guy and I traded software for our CoCo 3's.

I just don't see the problem people talk about. Maybe I've been really lucky.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

Admittedly, my flist is a pseudo-self-selecting sample, but you seem to be in the majority on this one.

I made you a reply but LJ ated it

[beable]

Seriously - I posted a reply yesterday just as LJ went down for emergency maintenance so it didn't get posted.

Anyways, me experiences are based on comp sci and math rather than engineering but I never found the culture at school particularly macho or hostile to me as a female geek. But what would have been extremely hostile had I also been an adult student with kids was the geek student culture that assumed school could suck all your time (e.g. pulling all nighters, classes at all hours, lab crunches). The school/work/life balance was fairly extreme in it's "school" bent.

The only real "macho hostility" I have noticed in my field is an overabundance of the guys who explain things in comparison to the general population. I am a very poor debater who doesn't want to hold forth an argue when I am at all uncertain of my "facts" so I find the forth-holders annoying to deal with.

As for why women leave, I think it goes back to the work-life balance we were talking about at the cottage. Women in their thirties and forties are more likely to have simultaneously hit the point at which their career requries that work comes first if they want to move up in their workplace and when they are likely to be the sandwich generation at home (caring for kids, parents, and often both at the same time).

While men may not be happy about work meaning they don't have the time to spend with their families that they need, I think statistically women are more likely to choose to leave jobs that forces the choice between the 70-hour work weeks and family responsibilities. For most households the onus of caregiver is more on women and this doesn't mesh well with high pressure jobs.

Re: I made you a reply but LJ ated it

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

Ah LJ, we love you, however you may taunt us!

The school/life balance is a good point. There are entire subcultures of oriental and Indian students who to all appearances study very intensely, but which are almost entirely dissociated from "geek culture" as I've seen and lived it, so it's not purely a geek thing. The geek thing seems to be doing that, and then piling a special project on top of it (e.g. the concrete canoe race, Formula SAE, IEEE student paper competitions...).

Why are men not expected to share in the caregiving and household work, I wonder? It's not been the case with us, certainly: whoever isn't working does more (i.e. nearly all of the) housework, and we've lived both sides of that balance.

Of course, I personally avoid 70-hour work weeks. Not only is it a shitty way to live, but it generally doesn't draw out my best or most efficient work. Typically, anything over 50 hours in any given week is pretty much unproductive time, and if I were working on my own, I would probably get as much done averaging 30 hours a week as I would averaging 37.5 in the long haul, with occasional "pushes" to fight through detail and scut work, and hit deadlines. Since I do more meetings now than I used to, the hours get used less efficiently overall because of scheduling conflicts and interrupts, so 35 hours would probably be my optimum now.

[xiphia.livejournal.com]

I'm in that age range, and I have contemplated leaving high-tech a number of times, but not for the reasons listed in the article. I don't find it to be a "hostile macho culture" at all, my male coworkers for the past 20 years have been quite welcoming and supportive. I also don't have kids to take care of, so my work-life balance is fairly simple, my cats just aren't that demanding. If I *were* to leave high tech it would be because I found something more personally meaningful in another field, no other reason.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

That would be a good reason to leave, I think.

I've worked to find places within high-tech that are personally meaningful and rewarding, with a pretty good success rate. I pay a bit of a premium for it in terms of getting less salary, but the trade-off is well worth it to me. Of course, if I can find a place with both, then w00t!